Post by Admin on Sept 9, 2008 10:28:59 GMT 10
From: longTom7 (Original Message) Sent: 1/05/2008 5:19 PM
I can see the value in this idea, small light with no moving parts. I looked at an idea on U/Tube a black fibreglass arrangement, the maker claiming it as a portable panning device? But I think the Rocker Pan is by far a better choice. It would be great in W.A.
THE MONTANA ROCKER PAN
Extract taken from Rocker Pan site link below.
To use the Montana Rocker Pan, simply place it into the water, to the top edge of the pan. Place a shovel of material in the middle of the pan, over the riffles and move the handle back and forth 4 to 6 inches, rapidly for 15 to 20 seconds. This action will settle the black sand and gold to the riffles. Next, slowly rock the pan back and forth, moving the handle 14 to 20 inches. This will allow the over burden to wash off the ends.
www.goldbuggy.com/_wsn/page3.html
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:34 PM
Like you Long Tom, I like it a lot. It would be a good alternative to the drum-type concentrator which a friend of my uses when water is scarce or not flowing enough, near a gold spot, to operate a sluice.
I have inquired and it is $53 (US) to send to Australia. I await the DVD which will be sent. It has potential - all manual operation and should be easy to use, quiet and low impact and requires little water. I have tested the Grizzly pan (similar in operation) and it works well.
Eugene
From: longTom7 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:47 PM
The video clip on YouTub was called Gold Prospecting Downunder. I think that type of auto panner would kill you trying to get it into where you wanted to work. On the other hand the Rocker pan is light and would take little effort. Joe
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:59 PM
I agree completely Joe.
Eugene
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 1/05/2008 8:06 PM
Just a dumb female comment;
I looked at the Rocker and at the price. $ 149.- canadian and then the shipping cost ? LOL, Peter build his banjo for a lot less than that. I think any handy man could build himself a Rocker and save a heap.
As a matter of fact, Peter just dumped an old ironing board frame on the tip. I think cut to size it would have made an ideal handle for the Rocker.
But this is only my HO,
Budgie
From: Banjo520 Sent: 1/05/2008 8:31 PM
Hi Budgie and all, what you say digger mate is true BUT what may seem simple to some can be very awkward for others. Then time space and tools come into play for some it is by far easer and much more simpler just to buy a ready made unit. Which I think is a great idea, the rocker pan seems to work on the KISS idea that is the way to go. Thanks Ron and Joe. James
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 1/05/2008 9:04 PM
I stand corrected, James.
As I said, I am only a dumb female, always on the lookout to save money.
Cheers, Budgie
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:13 PM
Hi there you lot, Mmmmm.....I cant but help the feeling that this is just another gadget to clutter the garage along with my mini concerntrator & numerous other gadgets for gold recovery. If it is only going to process a shovel full at a time, my Garrett gold pan will do more than one shovel full at a time, then what is the point. You still have to re-process the concerntrates at the end of the day with a pan any way.......& a pan is a hell of a lot cheaper so to is a home made banjo. What will be next?
People still keep on trying to reinvent the wheel. You just cant go past the tried & proven simple old gold pan. Damn....next they will be making round gold pans just like a wheel LOL or even hexagonal
JW
From: White_Eagle653 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:39 PM
J.W M8
I must agree with you whole heartedly, at the end of the day you will still need your trusted pan.
just my thought.
Cheers Hans
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:46 PM
THis is way I see it. I don't see it as alternative to a pan which is a exploratory tool for finding a work site,. True th garet pan can work a lot fo stuff but it still hard work and required bending over water. Panning is back breaking work even test panning (processing using a pann is worse). That is what I have found, but maybe an an old fart with a bad attitude and back! Yes, I do like trying new ideas and innovations no matter where they come from.
It an alternative to a sluice or banjo or drum concentrator when there is a shortage of water, Yes, shovel at a time like a banjo. but you rock it standing up and after a couple of hours, have a break cuppa and clean out (or keep going).
Cheers
From: Banjo520 Sent: 1/05/2008 11:57 PM
Budgie no unpleasantness was intended. James
From: moulsy Sent: 2/05/2008 1:33 AM
does anyone own or know anythink about the rotorpans?seen a guy using one the other day.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 2/05/2008 6:28 AM
Hi guy & gals, Panning is only as hard on your back as you make it. If you get set up right then it isnt. I take a little fold up stool that easily fits into my back pack so I can sit down, or a tub that I can sit on the stool or river bank so that I can stand up & pan. If your going to stoop over all day then yes it will kill your back.
Im a builder & dont need any introduction to crook backs. This idea looks to be a step up from that gold "pan" of the same shape, made of green plastic with moulded riffles, where you can see the mesh in this one, & you process material by a left & right motion. There is a slot in the bottom middle, where the riffles are in this one, that has a removeable bung that you pull out to get your concerntrates out as the heavies drop down into this lowest point. Check out this link. This one is blue. www.nqminersden.com/Grizzly.htm.
Eugen, I guess you could use it for gathering concerntrates but you are back to square one with still using the pan. I wouldnt fork out that kind of money for one that is for sure. I must admit I do like the concept though but think it rather slow.
I guess I am rather lucky here in NZ that we dont often have water shortage problems. But you would have seen my pics of the little creek I have been working in with just a piddle of water going thriugh the box.
As to the Rotopan....this is the same as the mini concerntrator that I spoke of in my earlier post, isnt it?? If so then that has been sitting in my garage ever since the day after I first tried it. Has been a great home for the spiders The only advantage I can see with this is that you can fill the bucket up with water & take the whole set up into the dry blue yonder, you wouldnt want to be carrying it though, & put through some material where there is no water at all. Soon becomes muddy & yuk to operate & the water is slowly pushed out by the waste tailings dropping & gathering in the bottom of the bucket. Of course you can sit the set up into a bigger tray or plastic box to catch the water for re-use. Also very slow but hey...as a sampling tool it has a place....I guess
Happy golding all
JW
From: Plonker402 Sent: 2/05/2008 8:01 AM
I was trying to think of a suitable reply to the panning & the Rotopan question. JW your post hits the nail square on the head. It has my vote. Cheers all
Sent: 2/05/2008 8:15 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 8:39 AM
My thought is, this contraption would only really be good if you don't care how much money you throw at prospecting gear. As others have said, at the end of the day you still have to pan off the concentrates, which you cannot do with this.
And it is bigger than a pan so carrying it through thick scrub could be a bit of a problem also. The Americans seem to have a great fasination for these kinds of gadgets, but I really wonder sometimes, how many times they actually use them when after the first couple of times they find the gadget doesn't make their job any easier. I feel this one would make your prospecting harder. Not so much in the prospecting itself, but it's another large item you have to carry in to the spot as well as your pan & shovel etc. Remember, it's 30cm x 60cm & weighs 3.6 kgs. That's 1 foot x 2 feet & 8lbs. Yes, they say it disassembles to fit in a backpack, but who here takes a backpack big enough to put something like this in, when you are just first checking an area to see if it's worth setting up your highbanking or river sluicing plant. I don't.
The Rotopan almost comes under the same category as this in terms of usefullness. I've had mine for 8 years now & have used it about 1/2 dozen times. The last time I used it was about 7-1/2 years ago for cleaning out a large boilhole along Reedy Creek.
Eugene, I do the same as John with the stool to sit on when panning. It makes it so much easier.
From: Bbbungy2 Sent: 2/05/2008 9:09 AM
Hi Eugene and other correspondents.
Reckon it would be easy to mount and use a Grizzly pan in a very similar manner which would also be Much cheaper.It's the fun of making a new toy I guess - but the Garret Super Sluice(round pan) is hard to beat and is the final part of the process at the end of the day.
Stools do ease back strain when panning off but I find ,for me anyway, that the plastic milk crate(inverted) is even more comfortable to sit and work on plus they are handy to chuck some of your gear in for transport.
Regards.
Geoff/bbungy2
From: roofa77 Sent: 2/05/2008 10:48 AM
hi all, yes i agree with ureg1 with pan you still have look down at what your doing stressing neck and sholder muscles,you carnt really look forward or straighten your neck for too long ,but with the rocker you can while standing, stretching the knees as well , it would be good for me,as i spend too much time bending neck and shoulders while roof cleaning and painting ,and have developed problems in these areas,so yeah if i can get out of bending the neck for too long it sounds good to me.thanks john.
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 10:53 AM
Digger mates (including the ladies), thanks for your views. I have learnt that if a prospector can make it himself, copy or modify another's idea he will. If he can save a dollar here or there too he will. Nothing wrong with these qualities Budgie, I admire them. Allow me to expand on a few things you said and what I think about pans, concentrators and work habits.
As I'm not good making things (except molecules) with my hands, I don't. When panning I maximize comfort and look to reduce the work and effort as prospecting is very physically demanding for me. I always use a stool or inverted crate like you Geoff, Andy John when panning. But I rarely pan in one spot all day as I find it too hard. If I did, it should be part of walking & exploring more, looking for new processing sites. Then it would not be so hard - maybe I am unfit and spend too much time at the computer. Now I only use the Garret pan as you can pan and concentrate quickly whithout much loss. No argument there.
But panning, when processing larger volumes, is still harder in my view than using the bucket concentrator or shovelling into a sluice or banjo. So i don't see the pan as a high-volume processing tool but rather a testing and finishing tool. This rocker is a step up in speed I imagine over the pan for a days work at one site. It is not for exploring as a pan is.
As some know I like new ideas and innovations and exploring the principles behind them (I am not backward with using my brain). Seems I am a sucker for testing new ideas (eh Geoff?) in practice of conceptually. I have used that small, blue, very light Grizzly pan and I have spoken and shown this to others before. It allows for very fast concentration but like a pan requires squating in water and is harder on the back than a round pan and is less suitable for use on a stool (action and deeper water and plug loss from knocking against rocks). I have toyed with the idea of a rocking mechanism for a similar device and talked wit Geoff about that.
This Montana Rocker is an extension of this Grizzly (rocking) idea. Like most concentrators (sluices bajos, drum concentrators, grizzly etc) your work ends up using a pan to finish off. No worries! That is the most satisfying part of the day. But that can be after some 2+ hrs of work using say this concentrator. In the US the water is often near freezing and keeping hand out of it has it benefits. Keep a straight back also has it benefits. Where (if or when) pumps and motorised procssesing is banned or limited this rocker may provide a good alternative tool. It is not a subsitute for a round pan.
I don't avoid using a pan, I like them a lot and always use them, except at end of banjos. (Maybe you all think I am anti-pan because of my comments on using them on end of banjos?)
If I I used this rocker concentrator (more appropriate name than a pan") it would be where there is not enough water flow for a river sluice. (A banjo is rarely possible where I work.) .
Anyway, these are my views. Take them or leave them. Sorry this so long.
Cheers, Eugene
From: Sigron2 Sent: 2/05/2008 11:10 AM
It would be interesting to know how high the rocking handle on this pan is . Even if it is 2 ft high it would still mean a certain ammount of bending to operate it and I know that for me just a slight bit of bending aggrivates my back a fair bit . Personally I dont mind bendind to pan (ifI dont have a seat of some kind ) as I am straightening up and doing some stretching between pans . I certainly dont intend spending all my time trying to break my back as I am out to enjoy myself , not neccessarily make a fortune . Besides most of the time I will be playing the banjo .Gotta luv the music .
Ron
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 11:18 AM
Thanks Peter. I liked the improvement but unfortunately that will not happen at that spot.
This is what you find there, gemstones. Matchstick is for size comparison.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 2/05/2008 12:13 PM
Andy, We are birds of a feather.
This is a pic of my young fella sitting panning on my stool. Only the garrett pan, same as yours, is out of the photo.
Eugene, You have a point about if there isnt enough 'velocity' of water to operate a sluice box, or enough water to run a banjo etc.
If this gadget & a pan & shovel was all you were carrying in, besides your smoko, then yes it would serve as means of getting some concerntrates to pan out at the end of the day. Im not knocking it at all but as has been said, the Americans like to "invent" gadgets etc etc but at the price it is a revenue gatherer for someone. Best bet is to copy it & make one. But not for resale on ebay like a certain banjo design that popped up complete with camo paint job
Happy golding
JW
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 12:44 PM
Ok JW, I accept your points but this rocker (if it works) still has its appeal to me fro the many reasons I have given. I'm not a knocker of American ideas. They have some good ones. The handle could be made adjustable in length and I can think of a few improvements if I was a handyman.
Hey, camo paint jobs are used by the very best here, including JB, who made my banjo complete with camo paint job. Aristic it is and blends into the scrub real well. Take you eye off it and its gone!
Cheers Eugene
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 1:01 PM
Off topic a bit.
I'm not a knocker of American ideas
I'm not either, but this one I will never understand. What I'm talking about is I have seen countless videos, Youtube & Websites, where the Americans seem to love feeding sluices with gravel tipped in from a bucket.
I just can't fathom out WHY!, when they are standing right next to their sluice, be it a highbanker or river style, they put the gravel into a bucket first, then put it in the sluice. Why not just put it in the sluice to start with like we do. They must think the bucket is going to magically make more gold or something, I don't know.
From: Ghbonny2 Sent: 2/05/2008 1:15 PM
G'day ureug,
From the Alaska forum, I've found some of the US guys love 'em. There is even a constructional on building one on the GPAA web site.
The use is different to the grizzly pan, they advise with the grizzly to immerse in water and move the pan sideways, not rock it like a dish.
With the Montana rocker, you put your shovel full into it, immerse it in water (can be ladelled in if water low), rock it backward and forward on the rocker feet reasonably quickly to sort the gravels and sand, then gradually reduce your rocking.
Like the grizzly the heavies remain in the centre, but you don't have to empty it before continuing.
Also a warning on the grizzly pan ( I think it came from Joe S. Indy) look at some method of affixing a safety retainer lead to the rubber plug ( bugger! I just lost the plug in a deep hole) and also a strap or bungy cord over the plug to stop it from popping out (bugger! I just lost all my gold).
Sorry about the comments, I just couldn't contain myself.
Geoff2
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 1:37 PM
Yes Andy, it doesn't seem to make sense. Now you mention it it does seem so. The less handling of gravel (shovelling, bucketing, clearing banjos, bending etc) the better. Don't know why the bucket is so important. Maybe Joe if he is watching can tell us?
Geoff, the actions described for the Grizzly are correct. But once you get it, one can process a shovel full quick smart. But after 10 you are tired and keen to have a break clean up the concentrates. I initially lost my plug so drilled hole and tied a string to it. The plug is prone to being knocked against rocks and come out, a design fault. The rocker promises to be easier again. My alum. boat-making mate in Orange could make one quick smart for me.
Geoff, I will be there Wed & Thurs nights leaving Fri midday. See you late am on Wed. Have to leave the pub for another day. Pity, maybe when next you return and invite me. Will bring port and toys. Seeya then,.
From: Bbbungy2 Sent: 2/05/2008 9:35 PM
Eugene.
Will give you a call when I get to Dereel and run over the location details with you again.Look forward to catching up with you and playing with some golding toys.Gaurantee that you will get some gold in those few days.
If you happen to have a video camera bring it along and we'll film a bit of hand pump operation while there.
Leaving here about 5AM tomorrow morning and really looking forwards to being off the leash for a few days of golding again.Have to go to Laverton Monday to have a spare wheel bracket fitted to the pathfinder but that's about my only interuption this trip.
Regards.
Geoff/bbungy2.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 3/05/2008 11:31 PM
A portable panning device? Hmm guys as stated before we must think outside the square in regards to prospecting.
Ok lets look at what you need! First consideration is the Back, second would be portability last would have to be ease of operation. All of the above falls down in one way or other in respect to the Back, Portability & operation what is needed must be light easy to set-up and operate type of unit.
Below is a thought, which consist of a short length of pipe with a holding bracket for a gold pan, A ball joint from a vehicle set on a plate. You place this in a puddle put the wash dirt in the pan which you can almost wash the same as you would by hand when you get rid of most of the wash from the pan you just put more in and repeat simple I am thinking. And it would cost bugger all to make that’s my idea on the matter. Cheers James
From: roofa77 Sent: 4/05/2008 11:39 AM
how s it going james,thats smart thinking mate,you have really got me going now,good stuff. thanks john.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 4/05/2008 2:37 PM
John good to hear from ya mate. Yep I reckon it would work I have never made one but it looks good. James
From: longTom7 Sent: 5/05/2008 6:56 PM
Like John said smart thinking, I can see that design working. Well done..
From: ureug1 Sent: 5/05/2008 9:09 PM
I have been away 2-3 days, trying to make some pocket money for the next year.
Worth a try James. A pan on a stick? Should work. I like using a spring at the bottom and using light-weight materials. That steel ball joint would be heavy eh? Testing at El may be the go as you have suggested.
Look forward to hearing how the rocker concentrator goes too Peter. Looks good!
Cheers, Eugene
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 5/05/2008 11:10 PM
LOL, looking at James' drawing my picturesque imagination ran away with me. I could just see Peter on his shed using my extention, aluminium walking stick. ( good thing I lost it a couple of years ago.) But I think it could work. The aluminium would not rust. The walking stick has a good handle for a grip and is adjustable to the correct hight. With a bit of work for the bottom part and the clip for the pan, I could see it working at even low levels of water.
Just my two cents,
Budgie
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 6/05/2008 5:18 AM
Bloody hell James.......Look what you have started now But hey it looks a good idea Just a matter of time before someone knocks one up & tries it.......
Good one.
On the Montana Rocker.....Is that a wing nut on the side of the handle so you can adjust the height of the unit & it also looks as though the bottom bar is removeable so you can slide the handle right out of the whole thing ? Would fit into a pack nice & easy then. After my initial thoughts on it I am now warming towards it & can see I will make one for the hell of it.
Happy golding all
JW
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 9:05 AM
There's one very crucial & critical thing that none of you have mentioned because all you've focused on is how it works.
In the advertising blurb it says "simply place it into the water, to the top edge of the pan". Ok that's sounds nice & easy. At a guesstimate, from the bottom of the foot to the top edge of the pan is 6 inches, so you have to find a spot in the creek that is 6 inches deep.
What are you going to do? Maybe spend up to an hour looking for a 6 inch deep pool in the creek while you could otherwise spend that time panning the old way. If you can't find a deep enough pool, you could do as Geoff mentioned earlier, & ladle the water into it. But that's defeating the purpose of this gadget, because if you have to bend over to get the water to feed it, you may as well be sitting on a fold up stool panning the old way.
And what about the places where you want to dig that are a fair bit MORE than 6 inches deep for as far as can be seen. Put it on the bank & ladle the water into it? Back to the same problem of bending over to get the water. Again you may as well be sitting down panning the old way.
Apart from the weight & that it's something else to carry, I think I'll just stick to testing the kms of creek/river banks in a lightweight, easy to set up, & highly maneuverably fashion with a "folding stool & pan in one hand and shovel in the other".
The only way to travel. Even with a small backpack (for carrying lunch etc) & a 1 litre canteen of water, you can still travel quickly through the scrub.
From: ureug1 Sent: 6/05/2008 9:49 AM
Andy, they are good points you make and this is a limitation. The horizontal bar beneath the pan could be made adjustable for deeper water. That leads to other problems then. In other places one may need to excavate a bit. But you are right, the depth it works in is fairly limited and needs to be allowed for. A DVD on it is coming and it may give some clues when it comes in. Will let you know.
In areas where I pan it would not be hard to find that depth or built it up with a few rocks. Again this would not make it an exploratory tool but a manual tool for working for a hours in one spot. It is a sluice substitute when water is not running.
Like you, for testing creeks the tools I take are stool, pan and shovel. Thats all. Good comments mate.
James. Your unit could have an adjustable pan holder but water level again would be critical.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 10:23 AM
but a manual tool for working for a hours in one spot.
And I know of just a spot it could be used for that very purpose Eugene. But I can tell you, I would not like to take it there in a pink fit.
While I'm up at Eldorado next week & the week after, I'll shoot over one day to another area where I used to go reasonably reguarly, & take some photos of the track (can you call it a track? ) in, the creek & the gold that comes out of it.
Hope you don't get "vertigo" looking at some photos. hehe.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 10:42 AM
Hello Andy
Budgie and I will be at Eldorado from the 23rd. to the 25th of May and i will bring my Montana Rocker Pan with me and you can try it out and give your comments on it to evry one, I have only to purchace the rubber mat and cut it to size.We look forward to meeting you again up there.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 10:58 AM
No worries Peter. Will be interesting, in both respects of seeing how it works AND the ease or otherwise of carrying it up & down to the creek.
See. I'm not anti-gadget at all.
Also, now there's more water in the creek, & the three of us can go out easily together I'll be able to give Erica those panning lessons.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 11:49 AM
Andy
I have made Motana so the handle can be removed and in all it wheigh's about two kilos.
Budgie is looking forward to your lesson on panning that she is dancing for joy.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 11:59 AM
hows it going pete, budgie,youwill be there 23 to 25, i might come up and see you there, i will be flying out of the country for a month around that time, and it would be a good place to unwind up at el before i go away, i didnt get to meet budgie i seen her perched by the fire talking ,and didnt get to talk to her,and spoke with you for a little bit, then next minute you both were gone, and left early on the sunday.anyhow it will be good to see your rocker in action , as i carnt bend real well, hate sitting ,and stooping, and spend most of my time while working, kneeling and crouching all day pointing up roof tiles, so while golding if i can spend most of the time standing, its going to be better for me, so yeah im interested in your ideas. thanks john.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 12:08 PM
Hi John
I look forward to seing you again, and you wont want any directions this time on how to get there,and I hope there will be some water in the creek this time.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 12:22 PM
no worrys pete, i will need directions to go home though,last time when i left i tried to go the way i came and could not get back on the hume , and had to go through wang, was low on gas too.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 12:37 PM
oh pete i forgot, i see there some where budgie mentioned you had extra alaminium for making banjos, i havent had time to make one yet,maby i could buy some off you if thats ok, i havent even gone out and looked for some yet, i have one piece but its a bit narrow ,and maby a bit thick, about 3 mil . thanks john
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 2:03 PM
Sure John I have enough for you and another M8 coming and it easy to work with it is 1.mil thick.
When leaving Eldorado you turn right at the school and that takes you to the hume.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 6/05/2008 7:49 PM
Andy I though your back yard had Grass? Use the photo Budgie thats fine. James
From: Banjo520 Sent: 6/05/2008 7:54 PM
JW mate yep it is just an idea, but a workable one I feel. The Montana Rocker I look at it a thousand times now, I don’t know I feel it could be improved a lot. A half moon design springs to mind every time I look at it. James
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 10:00 PM
no doubt about you james your a thinker, the half moon seems so obvious ,only when you mention it , smart thinking again mate.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 11:04 PM
Andy I though your back yard had Grass?
I did until we stopped getting rain about the middle of last year.
From: Ghbonny2 Sent: 7/05/2008 11:23 AM
Hi andy pippin,
Above you mentioned that you would have to bend to use a ladel.
The old rockers (no, not Elvis) the ladel they used to water them was a tin can on a stick. I think they where also called a dipper. No bending, just sit, rock and dip.
Cheers Geoff2
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 11:58 AM
G'day Geoff.
Yes, they were called a "dipper". I have one.
Not having a go mate, but it's just something else you have to carry with all the other gear. I personally really do like travelling light with only the bare essentials when exploring either a new waterway or a new section of one I have been to previously.
Like I said in another post, I'll post some photos of a spot, while I'm away the next 2 weeks, where it could be used but it would not be easy to take it there. When you see what the way in & out of this spot is like, I'm sure you will agree. Even Pippin can't get down to the creek & back up again without a helping hand or two.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 12:43 PM
Just to add. I can see where it would come in handy though. Something like this would have made things easier at Eldorado at Easter because of the lack of water in the creek.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 7/05/2008 6:29 PM
Hi all,
Andy, Do I detect that you are softening towards this "gadget"? I must admit that I am. Sure you still need your pan but then you will always need a pan to clean up concerntrates from what ever "gadget you use to accumulate your concerntrates in the first place. Be it a banjo, dredge, sluice box or what ever..... This Montana Rocker is just that, a gadget to accumulate concerntrates as a processing unit, be it small scale, not a sampling tool as such like a pan although you could use it for that as well. It would be a lot easier & lighter to pack this into a remote spot to sample or process material than it would a banjo, that needs motor/pump & petrol to be carted in as well or even a sluice box for that matter.
As James has said, It could be improved.
This is what I reckon.
I see the riffles look to be 90 deg where thay could be more of an angle of 45 deg like dredge or sluice box riffles (Hungerian Riffle) The actual rocker unit could be longer in one direction than the other with the riffles in the longer side all facing the same way like a little sluice box. The action of use would be to load in some material at the shorter top end, let this fill with water & give a few shakes to shuffel the material & to start settling the heavies. After a few shakes, rock back to the shorter side & let fill with water & then thrust the water to wash material down & over the riffles just like a sluice box set up in a stream. Continue doing this in a controled manner until you need to load in some more material or pluck out the gold nuggets
JW
From: ureug1 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:03 PM
JW,
I can see that your views, as in your first paragraph, are almost identical to what I have been saying all along. It is not a pan substitute. I reckon when its tested a few more improvements, like those you suggested could be made to optimise it. Look forward to Peter's and others first tests and comments from El in a few weeks. Also how James' idea "pans out".
regards, Eugene
From: White_Eagle653 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:14 PM
My one worm worth
You can't go passed the trusted ol' pan so why bother with gadgets like that
Cheers W/E
From: Banjo520 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:14 PM
JW good thinking, Eugene your right on the mark, it would have been a treat last easter at El. James
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 9:03 PM
Andy, Do I detect that you are softening towards this "gadget"?
Not at all.
I'll keep an open mind on this until I have a go of the one Peter has made & is taking to Eldorado later in the month.
My real thoughts on it, are that it could be good for those people who go to areas that are not too hard to get to, especially where you have water right where you need it. But for quite a few places I go to, it would be impractical or not needed. This includes along Reedy Creek. There is no-where along that creek, where you can't easily backpack a baby highbanker to. Or get a river sluice in easily, & that includes ones the size of my big one.
Then there are the other places I go where this would be useless, because of where the gold is in relation to the water etc. The Buckland River out towards Bright is one that comes to mind.
The spot I'm taking a day trip to while I'm away in the coming weeks is better suited to river sluicing, but it is also very suitable to crevicing. The Montana could be used here, but as I said before, with this spot you want to take "down" only the bare bones of equipment, & for good reason. When I post the photos after getting home you'll see why.
The only place I have thought of where I could use it is where I go gem hunting, but when you can pan a dozen or more nice sized gems in less than 2 minutes with the big Garrett pan, I don't think I'd bother. That's the spot where I posted the photo the other day of my fold up stool in the creek.
But here's something I just thought of that hasn't been mentioned. How does it handle clay? That will be interesting to see, as everyone who has been on the Eldorado trips knows Reedy Creek has plenty of clay. And so do a lot of other places we go sluicing, my gemstone area in particular. I think that is going to be it's biggest downfall. In fact I'm certain of it.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 7/05/2008 9:22 PM
Clay Andy clay, that’s what I did not think about. It was driving me nuts knew there was something not right. Bloody clay never gave it a though. James
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 9:36 PM
Yes, James. I also knew there was something I was missing, but couldn't put my finger on it, until I read through my last post before submitting it. Then I thought of the clay, & immediately knew what I had been missing.
From: ureug1 Sent: 7/05/2008 9:46 PM
Yes Andy, clay is something that few units can handle. This rocker would roll the clay into nice little balls and spit them out the ends I imagine, not break them up at all. Bloody clay, the bain of prosectors. The banjo is best as it as it drills through it eh?
From: golddigger161 Sent: 8/05/2008 6:52 PM
Hi all, Im just new to your club. And its seems a pretty chatty forum. Read all the comments on this Montana Rocker Pan. Has any one seen one in action? Would it beat panning with a Garret pan. I had a martin marks pan, but I lost it lol, six months ago, somewhere at Oallen Ford. Didnt bother looking for it. It probably floated down to Nowra. Any info or videos regarding this Montana Rocker?
From: andy_pippin Sent: 8/05/2008 7:02 PM
G'day golddigger. Welcome to the group.
Not sure if anyone here would have seen on in action. I don't even know if they can be bought in Australia.
From reading how to use it on their website, you can't compare it to a pan. It's more like a sluice, so you would have to pan the concentrates anyway.
So, would it beat a Garrett or any other pan? In a word, no.
From: golddigger161 Sent: 8/05/2008 7:09 PM
Thanks for that Andy. Will just have to wait and see, when anyone gets one over here. But doesnt sound very hopefull as an alternative to the old faithfull pan..
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 9/05/2008 8:31 AM
Hi there Golddigger, Yes welcome to the mad house.
Guys I think some of you are MISSING the point here. This is not ment to replace a pan. NOTHING can replace the tried & proven PAN for the final clean up of your days concerntrates.......!!!!!! This "gadget" is not a pan & not intended to replace a pan but is another tool, like a sluice box or banjo or dredge or what ever, to accumulate concertrates. What part of that dont you understand!!! ? It isnt bulky, if the handle slides out, the whole thing would fit into a backpack easy as.... You need to stop comparing it to a pan. Thank you & happy golding
JW
From: Plucker8 Sent: 9/05/2008 8:36 AM
KiwiJW2 I like what you said about improving the Montana rocker. I am going to make one I can see the value of having one. Laurence
From: ureug1 Sent: 9/05/2008 9:52 AM
JW, I agree 1000% with you. This is what I have been saying all along. It is a pity it is called a "pan", a "rocker sluice" would be a better term. I see is as portable, prospecting tool, capable of being used with little and no flowing water.
JW, what do you think, does it need to be just under water or do you think it would work fully submersed? If so water depth is less critical (even tho' one cannot see what is happening due to muddy waters) it may still work well.
I reckon clay would be a problem but that the same with any sluice or pans. You need to break any clay up before processing it.
Once tested, I think improvements will become obvious. Look forward to any feedback than may come in.
Eugene
From: roofa77 Sent: 9/05/2008 10:13 AM
your dead right J.W. very well explained mate,what the montana rocker is about.thanks john.
From: ureug1 Sent: 9/05/2008 1:54 PM
Hi all,
I have just received a DVD of the Montana Rocker from the US.
Will provide you all with a brief report of the key points when I have time to view it. In a day or three.
Cheers, Eugene
From: Banjo520 Sent: 9/05/2008 2:29 PM
JW good post. I know a spot or two where I could use it. Eugene that would be top's mate. James
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 9/05/2008 11:05 PM
Hi guys, Eugene the more I think about this little set up the more the concept grows on me. I would say that it would have to be set up so the water level is not covering the top edge so that when you fill it with water to do the rocking thing that the water, once in it, can move freely back & forth in it to do its thing. I really think it can be improved on, like I said in my earlier post, but that will have to be tried & put to the test. Be great to hear what you find out from the DVD.
As to clay......well yes that is always a problem. The banjo is probably the best & least labour intensive way of working clayey material. I dont have a great problem here in NZ with clay. Certainly not here in the Coromandel & down in Central Otago the gold bearing material is generally in glacial morain & glacial out wash gravels. The worst place for clay would be on the West Coast where gold was on the "Maori Bottom" as the old timers used to call it. A blue puggy Papa Clay which was below the river gravels & formed the true bottom. I havnt done much on the Coast as it is usualy crap weather. The rocker would be no good on clay. The clay would rob the box of any gold that may have been in it. That is for sure. HORRIBLE stuff.
I am hopefully off to the river tomorrow to give my first ever banjo that I have just finished making its maiden run. A BIG thank you to you James for you help & comments, & others, for your advise & plans that you have put up on the site
Happy golding
JW
From: andy_pippin Sent: 10/05/2008 11:46 AM
Hi guys.
I've just read through the blurb, once again, that accompanies the photo of this thing on the website that longtom7 provided the link to.
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind on it until I try the one that Peter made to take to Eldorado in a couple of weeks.
After working this gadget for maybe only 1/2 an hour, how much concentrates are going to be in it, as it is not self cleaning like a sluice is. And if you let the concentrates build up to the point of being close to the top, I would think you are going to be losing gold.
As I said, I am trying to keep an open mind about it, but time will tell I suppose.
From: 37therock Sent: 10/05/2008 11:58 AM
Hi Andy
Just read your message and I am pleased to say I have finnished the Montana Rocker,and yes I will be bringing it to Eldorado with me.
I would put a photo of it on here now but I am off for the week end to Melbourne, so I will take the photo and put it on for you and others to see on Monday.
From: ureug1 Sent: 11/05/2008 1:31 PM
Hi y'all who are still interested in this rocker:
The following are my views on watching this 10 min DVD.
It shows how it is assembled from 3 parts. Could be very portable and light, disassembled & carried in a back pack. (tray comes with ribbed carpet and expanded mesh to hold down as well as Al riffles which serve same pupose and trap coarser material. It is shown in use in a river. It works in processing where:
* water flow is slow
* water is limited, or where
* motorised processing is not allowed or
* access is difficult.
He showed 2 lots of 3-4 shovel fulls of sand / gravel processed in shallow water 6-8". This is quick, done in 20 secs per load. Slow rocking in water (at lip height) then more vigourous rocking to expel most gravel and rocks. (Note: manual removal of some large rock was still required. So a small rake could be used instead of fingers to remove these. Or a pre-classifier screen on top may work to remove larger rocks. Just thinking aloud here.)
Although he processed just 6 shovel fulls for the demo he could have worked it, accumulating concentrates, for an hour or more before transfering to pan. That was done (like you would from a sluice - remove riffles, transfer concentrates from mat. rinse mat, pan down. Simplified mattering and mesh riffle removal is worthwhile.
James' curved 1/4 moon shaped tray may work better still. So a few things to think about here. I see this as a "rocking sluice". It has same problems with classifying and / or removing larger rocks. Clay would remain a problem as it is with most sluices. Some leaning over is still required but nowhere near as much as panning requires. It should be able to process at much faster than panning rate in a day, with less effort and crouching.
Kathy, it may suit you or those who don't want to crouch for too long over a pan and when water is slow or scarce and sluicing banjo use are not possible. I still think it has potential in some areas here.
I also wonder if it would work as dry pan? Any thoughts on that anyone?
If anyone is interested I can send the DVD to them and they can pass it on.
Cheers, Eugene
From: stone218 Sent: 11/05/2008 8:42 PM
Good line of posting. thanks.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 11/05/2008 9:35 PM
G'day Eugene, Thanks for that mate. Sounds good.
I tried out my banjo yesterday & today & she works bloody well. Even got some really fine gold. My little 2 stroke 1.5"motor/ pump gives it heaps of pressure at start up idle only. Im thinking of maybe drilling more holes but having just said that it doesnt need any more water going down the box & riffles. They are working just fine. I wish I made one ages ago. I will do a post on its construction & put up some pics during the week.
Happy golding all
JW
From: Banjo520 Sent: 12/05/2008 8:27 AM
JW mate that would be a great help. Mate no more jetting holes, the idea was to have the motor running at low throttle so the need to take heaps of fuel into an area is not needed. This helps if you need to walk a distance. Well done digger mate James
From: 37therock Sent: 13/05/2008 1:12 PM
Andy
And others I have finnished my Montana and look forward in trying it out at Eldorado Friday week.
The only concern I have with it is I think I will have to do to it, is to secure the matting each end, for I think with any flow of water in each end may lift the matting.
From: Plucker8 Sent: 16/05/2008 8:23 AM
37therock looks good.
From: Prettycooldude3 Sent: 16/05/2008 6:20 PM
Does anyone think you could use one of these in south australia as it is not powered and i think should be classed as a pan David
From: ureug1 Sent: 16/05/2008 6:43 PM
David, My view is that it should be acceptable. It is totally manual like a pan, has no moving parts, and is non mechanical etc.
Others may make other comments. Cheers, Eugene
I can see the value in this idea, small light with no moving parts. I looked at an idea on U/Tube a black fibreglass arrangement, the maker claiming it as a portable panning device? But I think the Rocker Pan is by far a better choice. It would be great in W.A.
THE MONTANA ROCKER PAN
Extract taken from Rocker Pan site link below.
To use the Montana Rocker Pan, simply place it into the water, to the top edge of the pan. Place a shovel of material in the middle of the pan, over the riffles and move the handle back and forth 4 to 6 inches, rapidly for 15 to 20 seconds. This action will settle the black sand and gold to the riffles. Next, slowly rock the pan back and forth, moving the handle 14 to 20 inches. This will allow the over burden to wash off the ends.
www.goldbuggy.com/_wsn/page3.html
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:34 PM
Like you Long Tom, I like it a lot. It would be a good alternative to the drum-type concentrator which a friend of my uses when water is scarce or not flowing enough, near a gold spot, to operate a sluice.
I have inquired and it is $53 (US) to send to Australia. I await the DVD which will be sent. It has potential - all manual operation and should be easy to use, quiet and low impact and requires little water. I have tested the Grizzly pan (similar in operation) and it works well.
Eugene
From: longTom7 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:47 PM
The video clip on YouTub was called Gold Prospecting Downunder. I think that type of auto panner would kill you trying to get it into where you wanted to work. On the other hand the Rocker pan is light and would take little effort. Joe
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 5:59 PM
I agree completely Joe.
Eugene
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 1/05/2008 8:06 PM
Just a dumb female comment;
I looked at the Rocker and at the price. $ 149.- canadian and then the shipping cost ? LOL, Peter build his banjo for a lot less than that. I think any handy man could build himself a Rocker and save a heap.
As a matter of fact, Peter just dumped an old ironing board frame on the tip. I think cut to size it would have made an ideal handle for the Rocker.
But this is only my HO,
Budgie
From: Banjo520 Sent: 1/05/2008 8:31 PM
Hi Budgie and all, what you say digger mate is true BUT what may seem simple to some can be very awkward for others. Then time space and tools come into play for some it is by far easer and much more simpler just to buy a ready made unit. Which I think is a great idea, the rocker pan seems to work on the KISS idea that is the way to go. Thanks Ron and Joe. James
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 1/05/2008 9:04 PM
I stand corrected, James.
As I said, I am only a dumb female, always on the lookout to save money.
Cheers, Budgie
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:13 PM
Hi there you lot, Mmmmm.....I cant but help the feeling that this is just another gadget to clutter the garage along with my mini concerntrator & numerous other gadgets for gold recovery. If it is only going to process a shovel full at a time, my Garrett gold pan will do more than one shovel full at a time, then what is the point. You still have to re-process the concerntrates at the end of the day with a pan any way.......& a pan is a hell of a lot cheaper so to is a home made banjo. What will be next?
People still keep on trying to reinvent the wheel. You just cant go past the tried & proven simple old gold pan. Damn....next they will be making round gold pans just like a wheel LOL or even hexagonalJW
From: White_Eagle653 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:39 PM
J.W M8
I must agree with you whole heartedly, at the end of the day you will still need your trusted pan.
just my thought.
Cheers Hans
From: ureug1 Sent: 1/05/2008 10:46 PM
THis is way I see it. I don't see it as alternative to a pan which is a exploratory tool for finding a work site,. True th garet pan can work a lot fo stuff but it still hard work and required bending over water. Panning is back breaking work even test panning (processing using a pann is worse). That is what I have found, but maybe an an old fart with a bad attitude and back! Yes, I do like trying new ideas and innovations no matter where they come from.
It an alternative to a sluice or banjo or drum concentrator when there is a shortage of water, Yes, shovel at a time like a banjo. but you rock it standing up and after a couple of hours, have a break cuppa and clean out (or keep going).
Cheers
From: Banjo520 Sent: 1/05/2008 11:57 PM
Budgie no unpleasantness was intended. James
From: moulsy Sent: 2/05/2008 1:33 AM
does anyone own or know anythink about the rotorpans?seen a guy using one the other day.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 2/05/2008 6:28 AM
Hi guy & gals, Panning is only as hard on your back as you make it. If you get set up right then it isnt. I take a little fold up stool that easily fits into my back pack so I can sit down, or a tub that I can sit on the stool or river bank so that I can stand up & pan. If your going to stoop over all day then yes it will kill your back.
Im a builder & dont need any introduction to crook backs. This idea looks to be a step up from that gold "pan" of the same shape, made of green plastic with moulded riffles, where you can see the mesh in this one, & you process material by a left & right motion. There is a slot in the bottom middle, where the riffles are in this one, that has a removeable bung that you pull out to get your concerntrates out as the heavies drop down into this lowest point. Check out this link. This one is blue. www.nqminersden.com/Grizzly.htm.
Eugen, I guess you could use it for gathering concerntrates but you are back to square one with still using the pan. I wouldnt fork out that kind of money for one that is for sure. I must admit I do like the concept though but think it rather slow.
I guess I am rather lucky here in NZ that we dont often have water shortage problems. But you would have seen my pics of the little creek I have been working in with just a piddle of water going thriugh the box.
As to the Rotopan....this is the same as the mini concerntrator that I spoke of in my earlier post, isnt it?? If so then that has been sitting in my garage ever since the day after I first tried it. Has been a great home for the spiders The only advantage I can see with this is that you can fill the bucket up with water & take the whole set up into the dry blue yonder, you wouldnt want to be carrying it though, & put through some material where there is no water at all. Soon becomes muddy & yuk to operate & the water is slowly pushed out by the waste tailings dropping & gathering in the bottom of the bucket. Of course you can sit the set up into a bigger tray or plastic box to catch the water for re-use. Also very slow but hey...as a sampling tool it has a place....I guess
Happy golding all
JW
From: Plonker402 Sent: 2/05/2008 8:01 AM
I was trying to think of a suitable reply to the panning & the Rotopan question. JW your post hits the nail square on the head. It has my vote. Cheers all
Sent: 2/05/2008 8:15 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 8:39 AM
My thought is, this contraption would only really be good if you don't care how much money you throw at prospecting gear. As others have said, at the end of the day you still have to pan off the concentrates, which you cannot do with this.
And it is bigger than a pan so carrying it through thick scrub could be a bit of a problem also. The Americans seem to have a great fasination for these kinds of gadgets, but I really wonder sometimes, how many times they actually use them when after the first couple of times they find the gadget doesn't make their job any easier. I feel this one would make your prospecting harder. Not so much in the prospecting itself, but it's another large item you have to carry in to the spot as well as your pan & shovel etc. Remember, it's 30cm x 60cm & weighs 3.6 kgs. That's 1 foot x 2 feet & 8lbs. Yes, they say it disassembles to fit in a backpack, but who here takes a backpack big enough to put something like this in, when you are just first checking an area to see if it's worth setting up your highbanking or river sluicing plant. I don't.
The Rotopan almost comes under the same category as this in terms of usefullness. I've had mine for 8 years now & have used it about 1/2 dozen times. The last time I used it was about 7-1/2 years ago for cleaning out a large boilhole along Reedy Creek.
Eugene, I do the same as John with the stool to sit on when panning. It makes it so much easier.
From: Bbbungy2 Sent: 2/05/2008 9:09 AM
Hi Eugene and other correspondents.
Reckon it would be easy to mount and use a Grizzly pan in a very similar manner which would also be Much cheaper.It's the fun of making a new toy I guess - but the Garret Super Sluice(round pan) is hard to beat and is the final part of the process at the end of the day.
Stools do ease back strain when panning off but I find ,for me anyway, that the plastic milk crate(inverted) is even more comfortable to sit and work on plus they are handy to chuck some of your gear in for transport.
Regards.
Geoff/bbungy2
From: roofa77 Sent: 2/05/2008 10:48 AM
hi all, yes i agree with ureg1 with pan you still have look down at what your doing stressing neck and sholder muscles,you carnt really look forward or straighten your neck for too long ,but with the rocker you can while standing, stretching the knees as well , it would be good for me,as i spend too much time bending neck and shoulders while roof cleaning and painting ,and have developed problems in these areas,so yeah if i can get out of bending the neck for too long it sounds good to me.thanks john.
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 10:53 AM
Digger mates (including the ladies), thanks for your views. I have learnt that if a prospector can make it himself, copy or modify another's idea he will. If he can save a dollar here or there too he will. Nothing wrong with these qualities Budgie, I admire them. Allow me to expand on a few things you said and what I think about pans, concentrators and work habits.
As I'm not good making things (except molecules) with my hands, I don't. When panning I maximize comfort and look to reduce the work and effort as prospecting is very physically demanding for me. I always use a stool or inverted crate like you Geoff, Andy John when panning. But I rarely pan in one spot all day as I find it too hard. If I did, it should be part of walking & exploring more, looking for new processing sites. Then it would not be so hard - maybe I am unfit and spend too much time at the computer. Now I only use the Garret pan as you can pan and concentrate quickly whithout much loss. No argument there.
But panning, when processing larger volumes, is still harder in my view than using the bucket concentrator or shovelling into a sluice or banjo. So i don't see the pan as a high-volume processing tool but rather a testing and finishing tool. This rocker is a step up in speed I imagine over the pan for a days work at one site. It is not for exploring as a pan is.
As some know I like new ideas and innovations and exploring the principles behind them (I am not backward with using my brain). Seems I am a sucker for testing new ideas (eh Geoff?) in practice of conceptually. I have used that small, blue, very light Grizzly pan and I have spoken and shown this to others before. It allows for very fast concentration but like a pan requires squating in water and is harder on the back than a round pan and is less suitable for use on a stool (action and deeper water and plug loss from knocking against rocks). I have toyed with the idea of a rocking mechanism for a similar device and talked wit Geoff about that.
This Montana Rocker is an extension of this Grizzly (rocking) idea. Like most concentrators (sluices bajos, drum concentrators, grizzly etc) your work ends up using a pan to finish off. No worries! That is the most satisfying part of the day. But that can be after some 2+ hrs of work using say this concentrator. In the US the water is often near freezing and keeping hand out of it has it benefits. Keep a straight back also has it benefits. Where (if or when) pumps and motorised procssesing is banned or limited this rocker may provide a good alternative tool. It is not a subsitute for a round pan.
I don't avoid using a pan, I like them a lot and always use them, except at end of banjos. (Maybe you all think I am anti-pan because of my comments on using them on end of banjos?)
If I I used this rocker concentrator (more appropriate name than a pan") it would be where there is not enough water flow for a river sluice. (A banjo is rarely possible where I work.) .
Anyway, these are my views. Take them or leave them. Sorry this so long.
Cheers, Eugene
From: Sigron2 Sent: 2/05/2008 11:10 AM
It would be interesting to know how high the rocking handle on this pan is . Even if it is 2 ft high it would still mean a certain ammount of bending to operate it and I know that for me just a slight bit of bending aggrivates my back a fair bit . Personally I dont mind bendind to pan (ifI dont have a seat of some kind ) as I am straightening up and doing some stretching between pans . I certainly dont intend spending all my time trying to break my back as I am out to enjoy myself , not neccessarily make a fortune . Besides most of the time I will be playing the banjo .Gotta luv the music .
Ron
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 11:18 AM
Thanks Peter. I liked the improvement but unfortunately that will not happen at that spot.
This is what you find there, gemstones. Matchstick is for size comparison.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 2/05/2008 12:13 PM
Andy, We are birds of a feather.
This is a pic of my young fella sitting panning on my stool. Only the garrett pan, same as yours, is out of the photo.
Eugene, You have a point about if there isnt enough 'velocity' of water to operate a sluice box, or enough water to run a banjo etc.
If this gadget & a pan & shovel was all you were carrying in, besides your smoko, then yes it would serve as means of getting some concerntrates to pan out at the end of the day. Im not knocking it at all but as has been said, the Americans like to "invent" gadgets etc etc but at the price it is a revenue gatherer for someone. Best bet is to copy it & make one. But not for resale on ebay like a certain banjo design that popped up complete with camo paint job
Happy golding
JW
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 12:44 PM
Ok JW, I accept your points but this rocker (if it works) still has its appeal to me fro the many reasons I have given. I'm not a knocker of American ideas. They have some good ones. The handle could be made adjustable in length and I can think of a few improvements if I was a handyman.
Hey, camo paint jobs are used by the very best here, including JB, who made my banjo complete with camo paint job. Aristic it is and blends into the scrub real well. Take you eye off it and its gone!
Cheers Eugene
From: andy_pippin Sent: 2/05/2008 1:01 PM
Off topic a bit.
I'm not a knocker of American ideas
I'm not either, but this one I will never understand. What I'm talking about is I have seen countless videos, Youtube & Websites, where the Americans seem to love feeding sluices with gravel tipped in from a bucket.
I just can't fathom out WHY!, when they are standing right next to their sluice, be it a highbanker or river style, they put the gravel into a bucket first, then put it in the sluice. Why not just put it in the sluice to start with like we do. They must think the bucket is going to magically make more gold or something, I don't know.
From: Ghbonny2 Sent: 2/05/2008 1:15 PM
G'day ureug,
From the Alaska forum, I've found some of the US guys love 'em. There is even a constructional on building one on the GPAA web site.
The use is different to the grizzly pan, they advise with the grizzly to immerse in water and move the pan sideways, not rock it like a dish.
With the Montana rocker, you put your shovel full into it, immerse it in water (can be ladelled in if water low), rock it backward and forward on the rocker feet reasonably quickly to sort the gravels and sand, then gradually reduce your rocking.
Like the grizzly the heavies remain in the centre, but you don't have to empty it before continuing.
Also a warning on the grizzly pan ( I think it came from Joe S. Indy) look at some method of affixing a safety retainer lead to the rubber plug ( bugger! I just lost the plug in a deep hole) and also a strap or bungy cord over the plug to stop it from popping out (bugger! I just lost all my gold).
Sorry about the comments, I just couldn't contain myself.
Geoff2
From: ureug1 Sent: 2/05/2008 1:37 PM
Yes Andy, it doesn't seem to make sense. Now you mention it it does seem so. The less handling of gravel (shovelling, bucketing, clearing banjos, bending etc) the better. Don't know why the bucket is so important. Maybe Joe if he is watching can tell us?
Geoff, the actions described for the Grizzly are correct. But once you get it, one can process a shovel full quick smart. But after 10 you are tired and keen to have a break clean up the concentrates. I initially lost my plug so drilled hole and tied a string to it. The plug is prone to being knocked against rocks and come out, a design fault. The rocker promises to be easier again. My alum. boat-making mate in Orange could make one quick smart for me.
Geoff, I will be there Wed & Thurs nights leaving Fri midday. See you late am on Wed. Have to leave the pub for another day. Pity, maybe when next you return and invite me. Will bring port and toys. Seeya then,.
From: Bbbungy2 Sent: 2/05/2008 9:35 PM
Eugene.
Will give you a call when I get to Dereel and run over the location details with you again.Look forward to catching up with you and playing with some golding toys.Gaurantee that you will get some gold in those few days.
If you happen to have a video camera bring it along and we'll film a bit of hand pump operation while there.
Leaving here about 5AM tomorrow morning and really looking forwards to being off the leash for a few days of golding again.Have to go to Laverton Monday to have a spare wheel bracket fitted to the pathfinder but that's about my only interuption this trip.
Regards.
Geoff/bbungy2.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 3/05/2008 11:31 PM
A portable panning device? Hmm guys as stated before we must think outside the square in regards to prospecting.
Ok lets look at what you need! First consideration is the Back, second would be portability last would have to be ease of operation. All of the above falls down in one way or other in respect to the Back, Portability & operation what is needed must be light easy to set-up and operate type of unit.
Below is a thought, which consist of a short length of pipe with a holding bracket for a gold pan, A ball joint from a vehicle set on a plate. You place this in a puddle put the wash dirt in the pan which you can almost wash the same as you would by hand when you get rid of most of the wash from the pan you just put more in and repeat simple I am thinking. And it would cost bugger all to make that’s my idea on the matter. Cheers James
From: roofa77 Sent: 4/05/2008 11:39 AM
how s it going james,thats smart thinking mate,you have really got me going now,good stuff. thanks john.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 4/05/2008 2:37 PM
John good to hear from ya mate. Yep I reckon it would work I have never made one but it looks good. James
From: longTom7 Sent: 5/05/2008 6:56 PM
Like John said smart thinking, I can see that design working. Well done..
From: ureug1 Sent: 5/05/2008 9:09 PM
I have been away 2-3 days, trying to make some pocket money for the next year.
Worth a try James. A pan on a stick? Should work. I like using a spring at the bottom and using light-weight materials. That steel ball joint would be heavy eh? Testing at El may be the go as you have suggested.
Look forward to hearing how the rocker concentrator goes too Peter. Looks good!
Cheers, Eugene
From: ·Budgie· Sent: 5/05/2008 11:10 PM
LOL, looking at James' drawing my picturesque imagination ran away with me. I could just see Peter on his shed using my extention, aluminium walking stick. ( good thing I lost it a couple of years ago.) But I think it could work. The aluminium would not rust. The walking stick has a good handle for a grip and is adjustable to the correct hight. With a bit of work for the bottom part and the clip for the pan, I could see it working at even low levels of water.
Just my two cents,
Budgie
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 6/05/2008 5:18 AM
Bloody hell James.......Look what you have started now But hey it looks a good idea Just a matter of time before someone knocks one up & tries it.......
Good one.
On the Montana Rocker.....Is that a wing nut on the side of the handle so you can adjust the height of the unit & it also looks as though the bottom bar is removeable so you can slide the handle right out of the whole thing ? Would fit into a pack nice & easy then. After my initial thoughts on it I am now warming towards it & can see I will make one for the hell of it.
Happy golding all
JW
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 9:05 AM
There's one very crucial & critical thing that none of you have mentioned because all you've focused on is how it works.
In the advertising blurb it says "simply place it into the water, to the top edge of the pan". Ok that's sounds nice & easy. At a guesstimate, from the bottom of the foot to the top edge of the pan is 6 inches, so you have to find a spot in the creek that is 6 inches deep.
What are you going to do? Maybe spend up to an hour looking for a 6 inch deep pool in the creek while you could otherwise spend that time panning the old way. If you can't find a deep enough pool, you could do as Geoff mentioned earlier, & ladle the water into it. But that's defeating the purpose of this gadget, because if you have to bend over to get the water to feed it, you may as well be sitting on a fold up stool panning the old way.
And what about the places where you want to dig that are a fair bit MORE than 6 inches deep for as far as can be seen. Put it on the bank & ladle the water into it? Back to the same problem of bending over to get the water. Again you may as well be sitting down panning the old way.
Apart from the weight & that it's something else to carry, I think I'll just stick to testing the kms of creek/river banks in a lightweight, easy to set up, & highly maneuverably fashion with a "folding stool & pan in one hand and shovel in the other".
The only way to travel. Even with a small backpack (for carrying lunch etc) & a 1 litre canteen of water, you can still travel quickly through the scrub.
From: ureug1 Sent: 6/05/2008 9:49 AM
Andy, they are good points you make and this is a limitation. The horizontal bar beneath the pan could be made adjustable for deeper water. That leads to other problems then. In other places one may need to excavate a bit. But you are right, the depth it works in is fairly limited and needs to be allowed for. A DVD on it is coming and it may give some clues when it comes in. Will let you know.
In areas where I pan it would not be hard to find that depth or built it up with a few rocks. Again this would not make it an exploratory tool but a manual tool for working for a hours in one spot. It is a sluice substitute when water is not running.
Like you, for testing creeks the tools I take are stool, pan and shovel. Thats all. Good comments mate.
James. Your unit could have an adjustable pan holder but water level again would be critical.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 10:23 AM
but a manual tool for working for a hours in one spot.
And I know of just a spot it could be used for that very purpose Eugene. But I can tell you, I would not like to take it there in a pink fit.
While I'm up at Eldorado next week & the week after, I'll shoot over one day to another area where I used to go reasonably reguarly, & take some photos of the track (can you call it a track? ) in, the creek & the gold that comes out of it.
Hope you don't get "vertigo" looking at some photos. hehe.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 10:42 AM
Hello Andy
Budgie and I will be at Eldorado from the 23rd. to the 25th of May and i will bring my Montana Rocker Pan with me and you can try it out and give your comments on it to evry one, I have only to purchace the rubber mat and cut it to size.We look forward to meeting you again up there.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 10:58 AM
No worries Peter. Will be interesting, in both respects of seeing how it works AND the ease or otherwise of carrying it up & down to the creek.
See. I'm not anti-gadget at all.
Also, now there's more water in the creek, & the three of us can go out easily together I'll be able to give Erica those panning lessons.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 11:49 AM
Andy
I have made Motana so the handle can be removed and in all it wheigh's about two kilos.
Budgie is looking forward to your lesson on panning that she is dancing for joy.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 11:59 AM
hows it going pete, budgie,youwill be there 23 to 25, i might come up and see you there, i will be flying out of the country for a month around that time, and it would be a good place to unwind up at el before i go away, i didnt get to meet budgie i seen her perched by the fire talking ,and didnt get to talk to her,and spoke with you for a little bit, then next minute you both were gone, and left early on the sunday.anyhow it will be good to see your rocker in action , as i carnt bend real well, hate sitting ,and stooping, and spend most of my time while working, kneeling and crouching all day pointing up roof tiles, so while golding if i can spend most of the time standing, its going to be better for me, so yeah im interested in your ideas. thanks john.
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 12:08 PM
Hi John
I look forward to seing you again, and you wont want any directions this time on how to get there,and I hope there will be some water in the creek this time.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 12:22 PM
no worrys pete, i will need directions to go home though,last time when i left i tried to go the way i came and could not get back on the hume , and had to go through wang, was low on gas too.
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 12:37 PM
oh pete i forgot, i see there some where budgie mentioned you had extra alaminium for making banjos, i havent had time to make one yet,maby i could buy some off you if thats ok, i havent even gone out and looked for some yet, i have one piece but its a bit narrow ,and maby a bit thick, about 3 mil . thanks john
From: 37therock Sent: 6/05/2008 2:03 PM
Sure John I have enough for you and another M8 coming and it easy to work with it is 1.mil thick.
When leaving Eldorado you turn right at the school and that takes you to the hume.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 6/05/2008 7:49 PM
Andy I though your back yard had Grass? Use the photo Budgie thats fine. James
From: Banjo520 Sent: 6/05/2008 7:54 PM
JW mate yep it is just an idea, but a workable one I feel. The Montana Rocker I look at it a thousand times now, I don’t know I feel it could be improved a lot. A half moon design springs to mind every time I look at it. James
From: roofa77 Sent: 6/05/2008 10:00 PM
no doubt about you james your a thinker, the half moon seems so obvious ,only when you mention it , smart thinking again mate.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 6/05/2008 11:04 PM
Andy I though your back yard had Grass?
I did until we stopped getting rain about the middle of last year.
From: Ghbonny2 Sent: 7/05/2008 11:23 AM
Hi andy pippin,
Above you mentioned that you would have to bend to use a ladel.
The old rockers (no, not Elvis) the ladel they used to water them was a tin can on a stick. I think they where also called a dipper. No bending, just sit, rock and dip.
Cheers Geoff2
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 11:58 AM
G'day Geoff.
Yes, they were called a "dipper". I have one.
Not having a go mate, but it's just something else you have to carry with all the other gear. I personally really do like travelling light with only the bare essentials when exploring either a new waterway or a new section of one I have been to previously.
Like I said in another post, I'll post some photos of a spot, while I'm away the next 2 weeks, where it could be used but it would not be easy to take it there. When you see what the way in & out of this spot is like, I'm sure you will agree. Even Pippin can't get down to the creek & back up again without a helping hand or two.
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 12:43 PM
Just to add. I can see where it would come in handy though. Something like this would have made things easier at Eldorado at Easter because of the lack of water in the creek.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 7/05/2008 6:29 PM
Hi all,
Andy, Do I detect that you are softening towards this "gadget"? I must admit that I am. Sure you still need your pan but then you will always need a pan to clean up concerntrates from what ever "gadget you use to accumulate your concerntrates in the first place. Be it a banjo, dredge, sluice box or what ever..... This Montana Rocker is just that, a gadget to accumulate concerntrates as a processing unit, be it small scale, not a sampling tool as such like a pan although you could use it for that as well. It would be a lot easier & lighter to pack this into a remote spot to sample or process material than it would a banjo, that needs motor/pump & petrol to be carted in as well or even a sluice box for that matter.
As James has said, It could be improved.
This is what I reckon.
I see the riffles look to be 90 deg where thay could be more of an angle of 45 deg like dredge or sluice box riffles (Hungerian Riffle) The actual rocker unit could be longer in one direction than the other with the riffles in the longer side all facing the same way like a little sluice box. The action of use would be to load in some material at the shorter top end, let this fill with water & give a few shakes to shuffel the material & to start settling the heavies. After a few shakes, rock back to the shorter side & let fill with water & then thrust the water to wash material down & over the riffles just like a sluice box set up in a stream. Continue doing this in a controled manner until you need to load in some more material or pluck out the gold nuggets
JW
From: ureug1 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:03 PM
JW,
I can see that your views, as in your first paragraph, are almost identical to what I have been saying all along. It is not a pan substitute. I reckon when its tested a few more improvements, like those you suggested could be made to optimise it. Look forward to Peter's and others first tests and comments from El in a few weeks. Also how James' idea "pans out".
regards, Eugene
From: White_Eagle653 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:14 PM
My one worm worth
You can't go passed the trusted ol' pan so why bother with gadgets like that
Cheers W/E
From: Banjo520 Sent: 7/05/2008 8:14 PM
JW good thinking, Eugene your right on the mark, it would have been a treat last easter at El. James
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 9:03 PM
Andy, Do I detect that you are softening towards this "gadget"?
Not at all.
I'll keep an open mind on this until I have a go of the one Peter has made & is taking to Eldorado later in the month.
My real thoughts on it, are that it could be good for those people who go to areas that are not too hard to get to, especially where you have water right where you need it. But for quite a few places I go to, it would be impractical or not needed. This includes along Reedy Creek. There is no-where along that creek, where you can't easily backpack a baby highbanker to. Or get a river sluice in easily, & that includes ones the size of my big one.
Then there are the other places I go where this would be useless, because of where the gold is in relation to the water etc. The Buckland River out towards Bright is one that comes to mind.
The spot I'm taking a day trip to while I'm away in the coming weeks is better suited to river sluicing, but it is also very suitable to crevicing. The Montana could be used here, but as I said before, with this spot you want to take "down" only the bare bones of equipment, & for good reason. When I post the photos after getting home you'll see why.
The only place I have thought of where I could use it is where I go gem hunting, but when you can pan a dozen or more nice sized gems in less than 2 minutes with the big Garrett pan, I don't think I'd bother. That's the spot where I posted the photo the other day of my fold up stool in the creek.
But here's something I just thought of that hasn't been mentioned. How does it handle clay? That will be interesting to see, as everyone who has been on the Eldorado trips knows Reedy Creek has plenty of clay. And so do a lot of other places we go sluicing, my gemstone area in particular. I think that is going to be it's biggest downfall. In fact I'm certain of it.
From: Banjo520 Sent: 7/05/2008 9:22 PM
Clay Andy clay, that’s what I did not think about. It was driving me nuts knew there was something not right. Bloody clay never gave it a though. James
From: andy_pippin Sent: 7/05/2008 9:36 PM
Yes, James. I also knew there was something I was missing, but couldn't put my finger on it, until I read through my last post before submitting it. Then I thought of the clay, & immediately knew what I had been missing.
From: ureug1 Sent: 7/05/2008 9:46 PM
Yes Andy, clay is something that few units can handle. This rocker would roll the clay into nice little balls and spit them out the ends I imagine, not break them up at all. Bloody clay, the bain of prosectors. The banjo is best as it as it drills through it eh?
From: golddigger161 Sent: 8/05/2008 6:52 PM
Hi all, Im just new to your club. And its seems a pretty chatty forum. Read all the comments on this Montana Rocker Pan. Has any one seen one in action? Would it beat panning with a Garret pan. I had a martin marks pan, but I lost it lol, six months ago, somewhere at Oallen Ford. Didnt bother looking for it. It probably floated down to Nowra. Any info or videos regarding this Montana Rocker?
From: andy_pippin Sent: 8/05/2008 7:02 PM
G'day golddigger. Welcome to the group.
Not sure if anyone here would have seen on in action. I don't even know if they can be bought in Australia.
From reading how to use it on their website, you can't compare it to a pan. It's more like a sluice, so you would have to pan the concentrates anyway.
So, would it beat a Garrett or any other pan? In a word, no.
From: golddigger161 Sent: 8/05/2008 7:09 PM
Thanks for that Andy. Will just have to wait and see, when anyone gets one over here. But doesnt sound very hopefull as an alternative to the old faithfull pan..
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 9/05/2008 8:31 AM
Hi there Golddigger, Yes welcome to the mad house.
Guys I think some of you are MISSING the point here. This is not ment to replace a pan. NOTHING can replace the tried & proven PAN for the final clean up of your days concerntrates.......!!!!!! This "gadget" is not a pan & not intended to replace a pan but is another tool, like a sluice box or banjo or dredge or what ever, to accumulate concertrates. What part of that dont you understand!!! ? It isnt bulky, if the handle slides out, the whole thing would fit into a backpack easy as.... You need to stop comparing it to a pan. Thank you & happy golding
JW
From: Plucker8 Sent: 9/05/2008 8:36 AM
KiwiJW2 I like what you said about improving the Montana rocker. I am going to make one I can see the value of having one. Laurence
From: ureug1 Sent: 9/05/2008 9:52 AM
JW, I agree 1000% with you. This is what I have been saying all along. It is a pity it is called a "pan", a "rocker sluice" would be a better term. I see is as portable, prospecting tool, capable of being used with little and no flowing water.
JW, what do you think, does it need to be just under water or do you think it would work fully submersed? If so water depth is less critical (even tho' one cannot see what is happening due to muddy waters) it may still work well.
I reckon clay would be a problem but that the same with any sluice or pans. You need to break any clay up before processing it.
Once tested, I think improvements will become obvious. Look forward to any feedback than may come in.
Eugene
From: roofa77 Sent: 9/05/2008 10:13 AM
your dead right J.W. very well explained mate,what the montana rocker is about.thanks john.
From: ureug1 Sent: 9/05/2008 1:54 PM
Hi all,
I have just received a DVD of the Montana Rocker from the US.
Will provide you all with a brief report of the key points when I have time to view it. In a day or three.
Cheers, Eugene
From: Banjo520 Sent: 9/05/2008 2:29 PM
JW good post. I know a spot or two where I could use it. Eugene that would be top's mate. James
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 9/05/2008 11:05 PM
Hi guys, Eugene the more I think about this little set up the more the concept grows on me. I would say that it would have to be set up so the water level is not covering the top edge so that when you fill it with water to do the rocking thing that the water, once in it, can move freely back & forth in it to do its thing. I really think it can be improved on, like I said in my earlier post, but that will have to be tried & put to the test. Be great to hear what you find out from the DVD.
As to clay......well yes that is always a problem. The banjo is probably the best & least labour intensive way of working clayey material. I dont have a great problem here in NZ with clay. Certainly not here in the Coromandel & down in Central Otago the gold bearing material is generally in glacial morain & glacial out wash gravels. The worst place for clay would be on the West Coast where gold was on the "Maori Bottom" as the old timers used to call it. A blue puggy Papa Clay which was below the river gravels & formed the true bottom. I havnt done much on the Coast as it is usualy crap weather. The rocker would be no good on clay. The clay would rob the box of any gold that may have been in it. That is for sure. HORRIBLE stuff.
I am hopefully off to the river tomorrow to give my first ever banjo that I have just finished making its maiden run. A BIG thank you to you James for you help & comments, & others, for your advise & plans that you have put up on the site
Happy golding
JW
From: andy_pippin Sent: 10/05/2008 11:46 AM
Hi guys.
I've just read through the blurb, once again, that accompanies the photo of this thing on the website that longtom7 provided the link to.
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind on it until I try the one that Peter made to take to Eldorado in a couple of weeks.
After working this gadget for maybe only 1/2 an hour, how much concentrates are going to be in it, as it is not self cleaning like a sluice is. And if you let the concentrates build up to the point of being close to the top, I would think you are going to be losing gold.
As I said, I am trying to keep an open mind about it, but time will tell I suppose.
From: 37therock Sent: 10/05/2008 11:58 AM
Hi Andy
Just read your message and I am pleased to say I have finnished the Montana Rocker,and yes I will be bringing it to Eldorado with me.
I would put a photo of it on here now but I am off for the week end to Melbourne, so I will take the photo and put it on for you and others to see on Monday.
From: ureug1 Sent: 11/05/2008 1:31 PM
Hi y'all who are still interested in this rocker:
The following are my views on watching this 10 min DVD.
It shows how it is assembled from 3 parts. Could be very portable and light, disassembled & carried in a back pack. (tray comes with ribbed carpet and expanded mesh to hold down as well as Al riffles which serve same pupose and trap coarser material. It is shown in use in a river. It works in processing where:
* water flow is slow
* water is limited, or where
* motorised processing is not allowed or
* access is difficult.
He showed 2 lots of 3-4 shovel fulls of sand / gravel processed in shallow water 6-8". This is quick, done in 20 secs per load. Slow rocking in water (at lip height) then more vigourous rocking to expel most gravel and rocks. (Note: manual removal of some large rock was still required. So a small rake could be used instead of fingers to remove these. Or a pre-classifier screen on top may work to remove larger rocks. Just thinking aloud here.)
Although he processed just 6 shovel fulls for the demo he could have worked it, accumulating concentrates, for an hour or more before transfering to pan. That was done (like you would from a sluice - remove riffles, transfer concentrates from mat. rinse mat, pan down. Simplified mattering and mesh riffle removal is worthwhile.
James' curved 1/4 moon shaped tray may work better still. So a few things to think about here. I see this as a "rocking sluice". It has same problems with classifying and / or removing larger rocks. Clay would remain a problem as it is with most sluices. Some leaning over is still required but nowhere near as much as panning requires. It should be able to process at much faster than panning rate in a day, with less effort and crouching.
Kathy, it may suit you or those who don't want to crouch for too long over a pan and when water is slow or scarce and sluicing banjo use are not possible. I still think it has potential in some areas here.
I also wonder if it would work as dry pan? Any thoughts on that anyone?
If anyone is interested I can send the DVD to them and they can pass it on.
Cheers, Eugene
From: stone218 Sent: 11/05/2008 8:42 PM
Good line of posting. thanks.
From: KiwiJW2 Sent: 11/05/2008 9:35 PM
G'day Eugene, Thanks for that mate. Sounds good.
I tried out my banjo yesterday & today & she works bloody well. Even got some really fine gold. My little 2 stroke 1.5"motor/ pump gives it heaps of pressure at start up idle only. Im thinking of maybe drilling more holes but having just said that it doesnt need any more water going down the box & riffles. They are working just fine. I wish I made one ages ago. I will do a post on its construction & put up some pics during the week.
Happy golding all
JW
From: Banjo520 Sent: 12/05/2008 8:27 AM
JW mate that would be a great help. Mate no more jetting holes, the idea was to have the motor running at low throttle so the need to take heaps of fuel into an area is not needed. This helps if you need to walk a distance. Well done digger mate James
From: 37therock Sent: 13/05/2008 1:12 PM
Andy
And others I have finnished my Montana and look forward in trying it out at Eldorado Friday week.
The only concern I have with it is I think I will have to do to it, is to secure the matting each end, for I think with any flow of water in each end may lift the matting.
From: Plucker8 Sent: 16/05/2008 8:23 AM
37therock looks good.
From: Prettycooldude3 Sent: 16/05/2008 6:20 PM
Does anyone think you could use one of these in south australia as it is not powered and i think should be classed as a pan David
From: ureug1 Sent: 16/05/2008 6:43 PM
David, My view is that it should be acceptable. It is totally manual like a pan, has no moving parts, and is non mechanical etc.
Others may make other comments. Cheers, Eugene